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Author Topic: Photo borders  (Read 9653 times)

Offline G3User

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Photo borders
« on: October 28, 2007, 12:46:05 am »

I have only been looking at OPR images for a couple of months and can't recall seeing any with a border so far.
My first attempts at repairing images were of family photos which I scanned. Where the print had a border, I found it useful to include it in the scan as it could provide a degraded but original 100% white area.
Admittedly the worst problems I was trying to correct was fading of the image and yellowing of the photo paper and both could vary across the print.

Any of you long term OPR'ers had experience using the border?

Athol

Offline Hannie

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2007, 03:46:40 am »
Hi Athol,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "using the border", maybe you can explain?  Did you mean to use it as a white point for tonal correction? 
My experience with  white borders is that they are always in the way of  proper tonal correction in the RGB channels.

Hannie
Hannie Scheltema
Distribution Coordinator
hannie@operationphotorescue.org

Offline G3User

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2007, 07:55:57 am »
Hi Hannie,

Yes, that is what I meant.

My experience suggested that as well as the dyes in an image fading at different rates, the surface layer of a print can also yellow. This means that the original print color is compromised in two ways.
Having a true white reference in the print means that the errors can be treated separately, the yellowing by typically using the white or gray eyedropper in levels on the border leaving the faded colors to be treated as a separate issue. The last image I did had nothing I could confidently believe was white or a neutral grey which may have made me more confident about the final color.
As I said, I have used this approach on images with much less damage that those I see on the OPR site but I couldn't help wondering if it might help to have the print border included if the print had one and thought I would ask.

MORE IMAGES AVAILABLE   :D :D :D :D

Athol


Offline glennab

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2007, 10:49:29 am »
Hi Athol

You bring up a very valid point, but I'm not convinced there's a way to get around it.  The photos we collected in Biloxi were mostly borderless, so there was no area to use as a definitive white and/or neutral point.  Would be wonderful if we were that lucky, but many of the photos were either very old, portraits or formal wedding shots, hence no border.  I don't know if I need permission from NAPP, but I'm going to contact them and find out if I can post the method Dave Cross taught us to get white, black and gamma points that are truly accurate.  Granted he used a color photo, and many of ours aren't, so I don't know how effective it would be on the sepia or B&Ws.  Any help we can get is worth a try!

Glenna
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. ~Albert Pine

(Photoshop CS5 /Mac Pro)

Offline G3User

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2007, 07:41:50 pm »
Thanks Glenna,

I think I have answered my question.
Downloaded a new image this morning and it had a small amount of the border in it. Doing a levels correction from it added lots of blue to the image, really too much. There is also a t-shirt which appears to be white and red, doing a levels adjustment on it also adds blue but produces a much more realistic result.

OK about the lack of borders on most images.

The method you suggest sounds interesting, anything which helps to restore the image to its original look should be a big help and minimize the amount of "creativity" I feel I am using in a repair.

Athol

Offline glennab

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2007, 10:21:01 pm »
Hi Athol

I did send a long message to the head of NAPP this afternoon to inquire about posting Dave Cross's color correcting technique.  Also put in a few thoughts about the fact that there are so many true gurus in NAPP (I'm a member, but far from a guru), and it would be wonderful if some of them would be willing to monitor the forum and lend some expert advice when we're battling with the really tough restorations.  I hope he responds.  I'm sure I could paraphrase the technique without a problem, but I'd want to take most of it from the workbook in order to be sure the information was accurate.  And I definitely don't want to step on any NAPP toes.  It's a great organization!

Glenna
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. ~Albert Pine

(Photoshop CS5 /Mac Pro)

Offline G3User

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 02:16:49 am »

Good idea Glenna,

Sounds well worth the trouble.

NAPP doesn't mean anything to me, should it? ( I live in the southern hemisphere so it translates as PPAN )

Athol

Offline RosyBijou

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 02:25:00 pm »
I hope it’s OK to throw this in here, but I’ve used this technique for setting white & black points for color, b&w and sepia toned images (most often with excellent results) for quite some time now.  It’s usually the very first thing I do when starting with an image…  I think I read about it in one of Katrin Eismann’s books. 

Use a threshold adjustment layer: (Layer > New Adjustment Layer > Threshold), pulling your little triangle out all the way to the edge, leaving one little pixel of your image white (or black).   ( ** see little note )  Click OK to set the layer. 

    (little note: ** Before you set the layer, you can toggle between the image and the black & white threshold graph by either using the space bar or by just checking/un-checking the preview option in the menu to be sure that you are selecting appropriate points – so you can avoid using an area that's obviously not part of the image (like torn exposed paper or a black chunk of mold…)

Activate your Color Sampler tool...  Zoom in so you can isolate that single pixel and place your color sampler tool point at just that spot.  Then you can re-open the threshold layer and pull the slider to the opposite side to find that last little black (or white) pixel….  Set the layer… place your second color sample point.  Then go ahead & delete that threshold layer.  You won’t need it anymore.   

Then open a curves or levels adjustment layer and use those color sample points to set your black & white points.

You have to manipulate the threshold levels separately for each point, but it’s really effective, non-destructive (plus, you can isolate channels if you’ve determined that one of the channels is loaded with information and want to see what the points of that channel are…) and seems to work across picture platforms (color, sepia, and b&w images).

« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 08:37:23 pm by RosyBijou »
Kerry
(aka RosyBijou)

Offline G3User

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2007, 07:00:55 am »
 Kerry,

 Just tried your method, it was far better than trying to set black and white by observing the histogram. It is too easy to loose some highlight or low light detail, particularly when you are trying to get a badly discolored image out of the mud.
Thanks for taking the trouble

Athol
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 07:06:40 am by G3User »

Offline glennab

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2007, 08:00:54 am »
Hi Kerry

You definitely have the black and white point technique down.  That's part of the process in Dave Cross's tutorial.  There's a little more technicality in the "new" way and an interesting process to get a true gamma point.  I have permission from NAPP to explain the whole method if I use my own words and my own screen shots; so as soon as I can, I'll round out what you've already described so well.

News at 11!

Glenna
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. ~Albert Pine

(Photoshop CS5 /Mac Pro)

cmpentecost

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2007, 01:42:53 pm »
I've used the same method as Kerry for a long time, and it usually works great!  Every once in awhile it won't work, but rarely. 

Christine

Offline sanbie

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2007, 05:21:58 pm »
I hope it’s OK to throw this in here, but I’ve used this technique for setting white & black points for color, b&w and sepia toned images (most often with excellent results) for quite some time now.  It’s usually the very first thing I do when starting with an image…  I think I read about it in one of Katrin Eismann’s books. 

Use a threshold adjustment layer: (Layer > New Adjustment Layer > Threshold), pulling your little triangle out all the way to the edge, leaving one little pixel of your image white (or black).   ( ** see little note )  Click OK to set the layer. 

    (little note: ** Before you set the layer, you can toggle between the image and the black & white threshold graph by either using the space bar or by just checking/un-checking the preview option in the menu to be sure that you are selecting appropriate points – so you can avoid using an area that's obviously not part of the image (like torn exposed paper or a black chunk of mold…)

Activate your Color Sampler tool...  Zoom in so you can isolate that single pixel and place your color sampler tool point at just that spot.  Then you can re-open the threshold layer and pull the slider to the opposite side to find that last little black (or white) pixel….  Set the layer… place your second color sample point.  Then go ahead & delete that threshold layer.  You won’t need it anymore.   

Then open a curves or levels adjustment layer and use those color sample points to set your black & white points.

You have to manipulate the threshold levels separately for each point, but it’s really effective, non-destructive (plus, you can isolate channels if you’ve determined that one of the channels is loaded with information and want to see what the points of that channel are…) and seems to work across picture platforms (color, sepia, and b&w images).

Now if I could just translate that to psp!! :'(
paintshop pro X1

Offline Hannie

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2007, 05:52:08 pm »
Hi Sanbie,

I don't think PSP has the the black/white eyedropper tools...unfortunately.  Couldn't find anything on setting white/black points in PSP, maybe I searched for the wrong term?

Hannie
Hannie Scheltema
Distribution Coordinator
hannie@operationphotorescue.org

Offline glennab

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2007, 11:00:14 pm »
Hi Athol,

I had to tell  you this -- good for a chuckle at the old lady's expense.  I don't know if I was overtired when I read your post (good excuse, anyway), but for some reason this morning your crack about being upside down and NAPP translating to PPAN finally registered.  Talk about slow on the uptake.  Anyway, I laughed at your remark and my humor-lag on the way to work today.  Sheesh!

Cheers

Glenna
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. ~Albert Pine

(Photoshop CS5 /Mac Pro)

Offline Tess (Tassie D)

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Re: Photo borders
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2007, 01:08:35 am »
Hi Sanbie. Smart photo fix with the advanced options ticked is where you set black, white & grey in PSP. You have 2 pics show in a split display, use the eyedropper in the left one as you look at it.
Tess Cameron
Distribution Coordinator
tcameron@operationphotorescue.org