Restoration or Re-creation

[klassylady25]

http://forums.dpreview.com <----------  I visit this board too and read and study.  I also posted the picture of the recent young lady that I complete and it has come under discussion.  I would like to know your thoughts.  Below is an portion of the conversations.  I would like to know where Ms. Hansen gained her training.  Perhaps that answer will come in the future. She is very gifted.   So what am I doing?  Now I'm a bit confused.       :-\

Vikki Hansen wrote:
 
> I think a restoration should restore the image to the state of the
> original (or as close as possible.) It should not be evident that
> work was done without having seen the original. One thing I see
> quite often, is that the restorer will attempt to "improve" the
> original, which then makes it a "retouch", and subjective.
> Above all, restoration is not about artistic interpretation. I'm
> not saying it shouldn't be done, or that it isn't worthwhile, I'm
> just saying it really can't be called a "restoration".


Nicely explained. This last example (by Oak & Acorn I think) was an outstanding restoration. The original work by Klassy was also outstanding, but was a re-creation rather than a restoration.
=========================

Not sure what sort of example you're looking for:
Here's a link to a layer mask tutorial I wrote:
http://retouchpro.com/tutorials/?m=show&id=63

Here's some examples of restorations I've done:
http://www.pbase.com/vhansen/restorations
--
Vikki Hansen
http://www.pbase.com/vhansen/galleries
http://www.lifetimephoto.com 

[kiska]

I can totally understand what Ms. Hansen is saying, HOWEVER, a good many of the OPR pics contain very little of the original to restore to. Maybe she'd like to join in and share her expertise.

Just checked her pbase gallery. Her befores don't even come close to OPR befores. I could get those back to the original state................no problem.

[Kenny]

I agree with Kiska, some of these are so badly destroyed that we can't do the restoration we'd like. We do what we can and I think with pretty good results.  :up:

[glennab]

Candy, I'd like to know which restoration you posted and what the discussion was.  Vicky's work is gorgeous, but I'm with kiska and Kenny: these are all easy restorations from which one can pull all the information one needs to get a near perfect likeness.  I even noticed that in the OPR Movie most of the samples of restorations wouldn't be considered "difficult" by my definition.  This is the type of work I'd done before joining OPR.  It doesn't prepare any of us for the degree of destruction we deal with in the difficult restorations.  Yes, ideally we'd have an original from which to get our information and wouldn't have to guess what's there.  And an ideal world wouldn't have given us Katrina!

Glenna

[kstruve]

I think it's interesting that the majority of Vikki's restorations have been colorized on this site: http://www.pbase.com/vhansen/galleries.  Especially after reading what she considers the definition of "Restoration" to be:

"I think a restoration should restore the image to the state of the original (or as close as possible.)"

That being said, Vikki's work is beautiful and skillfully done.  I also agree that most of those projects would be considered "Easy" or "Moderate" here at OPR.

As I've said previously on another thread "My goal is to restore as closely to the undamaged photo as possible, not to make it look amazing or better than it was to begin with.  When it comes to restoring photographs, I check my ego at the door."  However, with some of these photos, the damage is so extensive that we often need to interpolate information.

Kurt

[cmpentecost]

Vickki Hansen is a part of OPR, and was the one who did the tutorial using channels on one of my photos.  You can see her tutorial under General Techniques > Channels Tip - Photoshop.  I agree, she is very talented.

All of us have different skill levels and different ways of restoring a photo.  From the finished photos I've seen returned to me from the gallery, you all do outstanding work.  We are volunteers here....not paid professionals.  OPR wants us to do the best job we possibly can, and if we get stuck, to post our images in the forums for feedback.  Everyone will interpret an image differently. (For example, why do people still stare at the Mona Lisa after all of these years, trying to figure out why she is smiling!?!  We all have a different interpretation of her smile).  Anyway, I think what it comes down to is that we all do our best job possible, stick to the guidelines of OPR, and be proud, in our hearts and minds, that we are doing something good for those that are less fortunate.

Christine

[John]

You know what?  If I had submitted a photo to OPR and it came back re-done in Crayon I'd still be pretty impressed that someone even cared to try.

I prefer to think of what we do as restoring an image in an effort to recreate the feeling that it originally evoked from the person looking at it.  If you stick by that basic philosophy, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[klassylady25]

Candy, I'd like to know which restoration you posted and what the discussion was.  Vicky's work is gorgeous, but I'm with kiska and Kenny: these are all easy restorations from which one can pull all the information one needs to get a near perfect likeness.  I even noticed that in the OPR Movie most of the samples of restorations wouldn't be considered "difficult" by my definition.  This is the type of work I'd done before joining OPR.  It doesn't prepare any of us for the degree of destruction we deal with in the difficult restorations.  Yes, ideally we'd have an original from which to get our information and wouldn't have to guess what's there.  And an ideal world wouldn't have given us Katrina!

Glenna

I used this last restoration that I did with the girl, the one that was giving me mouth and chin adjustment,  as a way of sharing an example of restoration.  The link is below. 

I would like to thank you ALL from the bottom of my heart.  Perhaps it was a "duh" moment.  Your words are confirmation that we all are doing the best that we can, for the love of it. 
You all are the best!!!   

Candice 


Titled: Forum    Retouching
Subject    Here is an example of Restoration
Posted by    klassylady25  [CLICK FOR PROFILE]
Date/Time    1:26:27 PM, Saturday, March 10, 2007 (GMT)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=22390355

[glennab]

Candy

I just went through the thread concerning your restoration.  A fascinating discussion.  And I have to tell you that with all the valiant attempts at recreating, retouching, restoring -- whatever word you wish to use -- yours came closest to the original in my opinion. Until one has gone through the process of giving the utmost to get as close to the original as possible with so much missing information, knowing that the final image is going to someone who hasn't much left besides that image and possibly a few more, there can't possibly be an understanding of the agonizing decisions our volunteers have to make on these restorations.  I know I'm not the only volunteer who's started over and over on a photo trying to discern the most accurate means by which to render something that we have to guess matches the original.

You deserve much credit for the grace with which you accepted all the comments on that forum.

Mucho hugz!

Glenna

[Kenny]

You deserve much credit for the grace with which you accepted all the comments on that forum.

Indeed. Some of the comments were...ummm..."less than ideal".  ;)  I've been haning around Fark too long, I probably would have said something snarky back to them  ;D

[Dave]

I just read through the entire thread over at DPreview. I thought that Candace's post sparked an interesting discussion and while some of the criticism may have been blunt I did not feel that it ever became abusive.

This is a subjective art just like every aspect of photography. My work at the newspaper is criticized everyday and more often than not it's abusive (in a good natured sort of way). I know that if I show my portfolio to 20 different people, I'm going to get 20 different opinions. 19 will be critical and the 20th will be glowing. That 20th viewer will either be Angela or my mom.

At the very least, the word about OPR spread to some more talented people and I recognize some of their names in the recent slew of volunteer requests.

Keep up the good work. The more we do the better we get.

Dave

[glennab]

Dave --

I agree that there were no abusive posts concerning Candy's restoration, but some of them were certainly POINTED!  Nothing wrong with that.  I thought the participants gave their honest opinion, which I consider better than effusive, phony praise.

And how right you are -- SUBJECTIVE is the word for anything creative.  I just submitted what I and everyone else in the company considered a great cover photo for our central Florida guide.  The prez took one look at it and said "not a chance."  Back to the "drawing board."  It was even amazing that the rest of the crew all approved.  Pretty much unheard of.  The best thing to do is check the ego at the door and do the best one can.  And re-do if the big boss says so!

That said, I still think Candy accepted the comments on that forum with great aplomb.  It would be easy to get defensive, rather than learn from others' comments, be they positive or negative.

It's wonderful that people from that forum are showing up on OPR.  I'm blown away by the number of users online no matter what time I hook up to see what's new.  There's nothing subjective about the wonderful thing you started here.  It's positively the best!

G'night!

Glenna

[videosean]

For the sake of argument...
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/restoration
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/retouch

Where to begin?
1. I have no formal edumacation of any kind when it comes to restoration or retouching - they're just things I'm interested in enough to try and learn more about at times.  I have lots of interests but most of them involve images of some kind.
  I've been to an art college (long enough to realize that it's not possible to teach someone like me to be talented) and taken art history classes all along the way up to that point.  I have a general idea in my head of what restoration and conservation is mainly from those experiences I guess but also from watching video documentaries covering the concepts to some extent.  Not to mention that I've always been interested in cars and would go to car shows when I was younger... this kind of argument will pop up amongst classic car buffs every now and then - or it used to anyway.  Then there's furniture restoration too.  I've always had an interest in fixing things.
2. I agree they are 2 very different things and I have an interest in doing both.
3. The work being done for OPR is restoration work and not retouching... I'm not going to register at dpreview just to argue semantics with vikki ;)  I looked at her site and read the thread.  She's good at what she does.
Maybe I can sum up my opinion:
Restoration = something done in an attempt to fix or repair a work that was damaged or degraded after it was in a finished state.
Restoration's goal = make it as good as it was before it was damaged.
Retouching = something done in the process of getting a work to it's finished state.
Retouching's goal = variable.
I think they both share the idea of making something better than it was when you got your hands on it.
You can restore Michaelangelo's Mona Lisa but you retouch a model's face before it's a print-worthy image... before it's in a 'finished' state.
You can restore a 1957 Chevy to it's factory-original (finished) state but if you put 18 inch spinner rims on it and chop the top it's not a restoration.
Restoring a classic black and white movie or TV show DOES NOT involve adding color that was never in the original... that's right Ted Turner, I'm looking at YOU!!  Man... what they did to the B/W Giligan's Island episodes years ago was just terrible!

I've actually done image restorations as a job.  The customer/client is always right so I get input from them as much as possible whenever I think I'm treading into 'artistic license' territory... I don't want to get into a semantic argument with them after I think I'm done ;) but we don't have that as an option here so everyone is on their own for the most part.  Never has someone brought a heavily flood damaged photo where I work.  It's generally sun fading, scratches, cracks, rips, stains and other things that are just trivial to what I've seen here.  That's not to say I've never seen things at work that are next to impossible to fix, just never flood damage that has washed away any trace of the original image in some spots and accumulated dirt/emulsion/ink/whatever in other spots.

Honestly most of the images that need work right now scare the crap out of me.  Anyone who claims they do restorations should really try the hard ones that come through OPR just for the challenge of it.  I've not been at all happy with some of the work I've done for OPR and been surprised at what I was able to do on others.  It's the best challenge I can think of and that's why I came back to it recently... a challenge to take my mind off other things IRL that I've been dwelling on too much perhaps.  I don't get all misty-eyed like some do when talking about the work being done here but I totally understand that.  There's nothing better than doing something that brings tears of joy and happiness to someone's eyes :)

Everyone has an opinion.  The only person's opinion that matters is the one who commissioned the work.

[Ziaphra]

Hmm...I had to register to throw my 2 cents in but I wasn't going to argue the issue. What I was happy about was the apology from 'YoungJedi'...that made it worthwhile.

Haha...then it seems some have picked up the gauntlet I threw down too...excellent!  :up:

[Kenny]

Hmm...I had to register to throw my 2 cents in but I wasn't going to argue the issue. What I was happy about was the apology from 'YoungJedi'...that made it worthwhile.

Haha...then it seems some have picked up the gauntlet I threw down too...excellent!  :up:

Much to learn, he has.


/sorry, couldn't resist ;)